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NSL: Scoring System

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:15 am
by Sebek
You know what bothers me about the score coming into affect with CTF? If team A wins against team B 1500-1400 on for example trenton, but team A looses hard 0-50 on river, but team B wins hard 50-0 on river, team B is still in disadvantage.

I'd like to see the points of River multiplied by for example 35. If you really get 15 flags in total (45 points, you need a flag every ~2,5 minutes to achieve that in a given time of 40 minutes in total) you come to 1575 points, evening out that map. Even if you just get 4 (420 points then) or 5 (525 points then) you have at least a better balance than with 12 or 15 points. You could of course say the multipler is for example 30 (1350 points then with 15 flags) or something around 30, but only 45 points is not too fair to be honest.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:45 pm
by klifsnider
This is a valid concern, Sebek. I agree that we have to multiply river's score for it to be fair.

Rather than using an arbitrary number, I did some calculations based on old BGU match results.
The average total score for both teams on these maps (rounded):
Townguard: 6000
Woodland: 8000
Snowlake: 5800
----------------------
Average of the 3: 6600

ctf_river's average total score was 110, so 6600 / 110 = 60.

If we were to use a x60 multiplier for ctf scores, that means that capping the flag nearly equals a fullcap in a skirmish map (3 x 60 = 180 vs 200 for a fullcap). Although fullcaps happen less often than CTF caps, the score build-up from having flags captured is absent in CTF, so I think it evens out.

So, a x60 multiplier is my proposal. We still have a few weeks before the match on ctf_river happens, leaving some time for discussion in case people disagree.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:39 pm
by Unas
I have another concern about the score.

In the result spreadsheet on the far right side, there is the score column. Apparently it summates the team scores for each half and each game that is played.
Wouldnt it be more logical to take each match separately, count the difference in score between both teams and use this?

Example:
Team A has a match on river. They play perfect BG, great offense and great defense. They win the match 99:0.
Team B has a match on river. They play bullshit BG, full on offense, completely neglecting defense. They barely win the match 102:99.

The way it is now (not accounting for any potential multiplier, which I do agree with by the way), Team A gets 99 points, Team B gets 102 points.
Following the method I think makes more sense, Team A gets 99 points, Team B gets 3 points.
Obviously their respective opponents would receive -99 and -3 points.
This applies to every single map in the game, its just easier to explain on ctf.
I think that would reflect a teams skill and achievement in matches a lot better.

In the end theres two sides in the game. Offense and defense.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:27 pm
by KasoS
About what Sebek and Kliff said I agree. x60 multiplier should be fine.

About what Unas said i agree aswell. In every competition, goal average is used. So score = Attacking points (team points) - Defending points (enemy team points).
In my opinion this is really unfair to take only attacking points...

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:00 pm
by Sebek
Yeah like in football, if team A scores 5 goals and team B 0, team A gets +5 point goal difference and team B -5.
If team A scores 5 and team B 4 then obviously some part of team A played crappy letting the enemy score 4 points, so they just get +1 goal difference and team B on the other hand just -1 because they still managed to score 4 goals... (Like Kasos said)

If we do it the way we do it now the two teams could just go and farm, for example on river, flags, giving both, like Unas said, a huge amout of points (102 - 99). Also when you get the tie with 99 - 99 both teams get about 6k points with the modifier, even if they just managed to tie with no team being better than the other.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:38 pm
by klifsnider
I can't say I agree. You guys keep coming back to ctf_river, because there is indeed a 'defensive' aspect to CTF.
In regular skirmish however, this is not really the case. Instead it would encourage teams to go around all match and try to uncap every flag to prevent score buildup. This ruins the gameplay.

Keep in mind that there are no real advantages to being in a 'defensive' position in a regular skirmish. This is due to everyone having only one (inaccurate) shot. If I'm being generous, there is perhaps a 10% advantage to being defensive (having a shot lined up or hiding in a corner), making it 55% - 45% chance of winning the duel. That is not enough incentive to "stay and defend", instead it's nearly always better to go on the offensive and take the fight further away from the flag.

I am not convinced, however I would like to hear other (non-29th) opinions on this subject.

Last but not least, you keep mentioning "farming the system" and "high scores" on ctf_river. I am aware that in week 3, '29th' and 'The Real 29th' are playing eachother on ctf_river. As the league admin, I am the final judge in case of disputes. If I were to suspect abuse I will certainly ask for demos and decide if both teams were actually trying.
Just in case someone is planning to abuse the system like this, it would result in a double forfeit for that match.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:28 pm
by Unas
We're coming back to river because its like I said: the best example. It has nothing to do with both 29th teams facing each other on this map. If we were so keen on winning the league and that was our only goal no matter what, we would not have split our best players among two teams.

Ctf maps and regular skirmish maps tend to be sort of different in this matter. On bg maps both teams are competing for the same objectives.
No matter if you're valueing only your own total score or your own total score in relation to the enemies score, the best bet for both teams is always to capture and hold as many flags as possible, topped off by getting as many full caps as possible. Running around just decapping every flag the enemy team is holding is by no means a viable option in terms of playing style for the whole team, as it prevents your own score from building up.
On ctf maps however, both teams compete for different objectives., which makes the problem more apparent. As long as the game is still competitive, you need to worry not only about getting the enemies flag but also about securing your own flag. But there comes a point (and that point comes quickly depending on what skill gap both teams have) where you secured the match and it is no longer competitive because there is hardly any way for you to lose anymore, after you achieved say a five flag advantage or whatever. At this point, you can just fuck around. Let them get our flag, whatever, as long as we just keep getting theirs. This would be prevented with the suggested change in system, but it also brings me back to the first point about bg maps: on bg maps, I can hardly see any negative points about the score difference based system, on ctf maps however, it literally brings only advantages and prevents the match from becoming bullshit.

Now then: I'd like everyone to suppress any thoughts that might come up like 'he's only making this point because he is from that team', since that is both not true and also irrelevant.
But: looking at the scoreboard, you can see that the match of The Real 29th against the 42nd was a lot closer in terms of score difference and a lot more fast paced in terms of overall score of each team than the match of the 29th and Suggah Cult. Why is the 29th team not rewarded for this? Every member of Suggah Cult that was there should be able to tell that the 29th didnt abuse any offensive nor defensive tactics to reach this scoreline, especially since like I said: I dont think there are any ways to do this.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:03 pm
by klifsnider
But Unas, you are countering your own argument. In skirmish mode, being offensive is (nearly) always the best option, just like you said. So why would we reward defence?

Anyway, if I am interpreting this correctly, you (the 29th) are mostly worried about the unfair rewards, ie an easy match for BOT against Aladdin results in more score for them, even though the 29th had to put in more effort to beat Suggah Cult. This is percieved as being unfair.

If that is your concern, please remember that every team plays every other team once. This is exactly how it evens out: BOT will get a more 'difficult' match against Suggah Cult at some point, just like 29th will get an 'easier' match against Aladdin. This is where you can equalize the score.

Also note that I did not mean to trashtalk any teams, these are purely examples, Aladdin may very well win the league.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:41 pm
by Ninjah Tigah
The amount of rhetoric on this thread is making my head explode. Examples and colourful imagery is not an explanation.

This is all I have understood from Unas, Sebek & Kasos:

Scoring 99-0 is better than 102-99 because apparently you've managed to stop the enemy team from capping the flag once.

That is possibly the most flawed statement I have ever seen on a battlegrounds 2 thread. If a team is beating another team 99-0 or any massive margin as such then that means that the enemy team were either all drooling over their keyboards or they've all become quadriplegics overnight and so the other team deserve no more credit for having beaten a team by such a margin. Since you are going to make the comparison to football, you realise that there is some teams that conceed massive amounts of goals but also score many goals and end up winning leagues? You're promoting one type of gameplay style which you feel is better, if that's the case there's nothing stopping you from increasing that 99-0 further. Punishing teams for having a different gameplay style is not acceptable from my perspective. Especially if they're having more fun.

As for:
But there comes a point (and that point comes quickly depending on what skill gap both teams have) where you secured the match and it is no longer competitive because there is hardly any way for you to lose anymore, after you achieved say a five flag advantage or whatever. At this point, you can just fuck around. Let them get our flag, whatever, as long as we just keep getting theirs.
That is entirely to be done at a team's discretion, again, since you want to use such colourful imagery of football then you can look at the Disgrace of Gijón.

Re: New Skirmish League (NSL): Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:03 pm
by Sebek
Since you are going to make the comparison to football, you realise that there is some teams that conceed massive amounts of goals but also score many goals and end up winning leagues?
Yeah because they won more matches as the others. So there is no need to compare the goal difference. The second place can of course have a higher goal difference but they lost like one more match so the points they got by wins are less. Like Bundesliga scores atm: Schalke at place 6 with 0 goal difference and Wolfsburg at place 7 with +5 goal difference - but Schalke won more matches/got more ties so they have one total point more. Same as we have right now, just that the "goal difference" e.g. "total match score" is calculated different.

If we have team A vs team C on for example townguard with a score of 3500 - 3300
and team B vs team D with a score of 3400 - 2300

Whos the better team, team A or team B? It's team B beause they played more effective as a team, talking to each other, pushing at the right moments (i.e. from townsquare and alley to church together) instead of just letting one last dude (for example from townsquare) push, loosing this flag because of that, gifting some points to the enemy team.

Team A might get more points because they manage to fullcap more but team B manages to get almost the same score, as well as holding the enemy down. And this game is not just fullcaps.

Or let's make it more understandable:
Team A - Team C -> 3500 - 3300 Townguard
Team B - Team D -> 3500 - 2500 Townguard
Team A - Team D -> 3000 - 2800 Trenton
Team B - Team C -> 3000 - 2500 Trenton
Who's better, A or B? We don't care atm, both teams get the same score of 6500. But actually team B is better, right?

And no, I'm not bitching about the scores of the first match, idc. It's about the fairness of the total NSL results and there are four more matches to come, everything can change.


Anyways I'd like to hear some more opinions as well. 42nd? BOT? Aladdin? What do you guys think?