Linebattle Cup Discussion

Moderator: klifsnider

klifsnider
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:02 am

Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by klifsnider » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:04 am

Hello everyone

I have already spoken to most clans about starting a linebattle cup.
For now, my idea is quite simply to follow the NSL organization, ie 1 match against every opponent.
This brings up the 'problem' with the score (which would be rounds won in this case). Nothing is set in stone yet, so feel free to launch some ideas.

TEAMS (Suggested)
- 29th
- 49th
- 42nd
- Alliance of 23rd & 12.Iftr or alternative

In regards to setting a date for the matches, it seems like a good idea to let the clans arrange a time themselves within a certain week, as it is more challenging to get a bunch of players online.

I would also write a set of rules that will be strictly enforced regarding shooting commanders et cetera.
These rules should be made in agreement with the clans (discuss!). I'm also toying with the idea of having a sort of referee present in every match to enforce the rules.

Let me know what you think!

joethepro36
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by joethepro36 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:22 pm

LBC rules should be used as a basis. We also need imo at least 4 teams in.

Unas
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:36 pm

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:34 pm

29th is happy to be a part I suppose.

I agree with Joe, we should just use the LBC rules for the most part.
https://lbchamp.wordpress.com/rules/

Those right there.

The score problem does not exist in a linebattle scenario.
If I won the match 9:1 and another team won theirs 8:2, the scores get perfectly reflected by just counting the amount of rounds won for every team. There can be no scenario where I win 9:8 and the other team won 8:0, since theres always 10 rounds played and you can only win or lose them.

As for referees, I dont think its really necessary. First you'd have to get fair-minded people to do it, then they'd have to bore themselves through a whole linebattle match. I don't know why we need referees before anyone has even complained about what the other team did. In case theres a complaint, can always rewatch that part in the demo.

klifsnider
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by klifsnider » Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:47 pm

Unas wrote:As for referees, I dont think its really necessary. First you'd have to get fair-minded people to do it, then they'd have to bore themselves through a whole linebattle match. I don't know why we need referees before anyone has even complained about what the other team did. In case theres a complaint, can always rewatch that part in the demo.
A referee can make decisions on the spot. What happens if one team is shooting the commander on purpose?
I watch the demo 3 days later, and then what? They get disqualified completely for that? A rematch, requiring 20+ people to replay the whole thing?
The referee could simply say that a round needs to be replayed immediately or impose any other sanctions.

The benefits of having someone there are pretty clear to me, imo.

Unas
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:36 pm

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:29 pm

A referee gives you the bonus that he can call for a replay immediately on the spot. A demo review doesnt fulfill that. But a demo review, even if not entirely accurate unless you have the demo of exactly that guy that shot the commander (which you probably wont, since having every single soldier recording and uploading a demo is not viable), is much more accurate. Because unless the guy that the referee is spectating at that point is shooting the commander, he won't be able to know whether the commander shooter actually aimed at the commander or not either. Distance and line length are only indicators, no proof.

Either way, if you find unbiased people that wanna referee, I have no problems with that. I can just imagine it'd be quite boring to follow a whole tryhard linebattle from spec.

Hawke
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:17 pm

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Hawke » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:22 pm

After all this time I still don't see why such a huge fuss is made about commander killing. It's certainly irritating to the commander that is shot, and it's not particularly sporting and should be frowned upon and discouraged, but I just don't understand why its such a huge issue to so many people.

Any clan worth it's salt has an entire chain of command all the way down to corporal that should be able to take command on the spot. It's a realistic scenario for the type of war that was being fought in America at the time, and it's interesting to have to quickly adapt to the loss of a commander on the spot.

Anyway, I would be interested to see some new maps and some new variations of the rules brought into a Line Battle league. Same old same old is great and enjoyable, but an organized league with proper clans could be a great test-bed for trying out new things when it comes to "professional" Line battles.
I hated to have to kill them all, but they had to be taught a lesson.

Unas
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:36 pm

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:13 pm

The commander killing I think was just a convenient example of rule violations.

Personally, I dont have a huge issue with commander killing. The shooting mechanics in this game mean that it can happen in many scenarios that the commander gets wounded. Great distance shooting, small lines, bullet spread, quick fire commands etc all mean that its likely for the commander to die every once in a while without the opposing line actually trying to kill him in particular.
And thats what the rules say, right? It is forbidden to kill the commander on purpose.

However, since BG2 is a very tactical and fast paced game in terms of linebattling and good commanders need to be very precise with their timings, generally allowing to target commanders outside of skirmishes or charges is not an option. Especially in a line that is moving or planning to move shortly, the death of the commander brings disarray for just enough seconds that it can cost you a whole round, even if everyone is used to it and pays attention.


I wouldn't have any ideas on how we should change the rules in any major way, but in terms of maps I do agree: we should use a fairly fresh pool (same goes for skirmish leagues really). The 29th has had a fair amount of map makes in the past years and they have made some good linebattle maps. Others they made are dogshit, that has to be said, but some are very good. Seing how some of the very old trr maps that everyone knows are also quite shit actually, should it come to a tournament, we should definitely look into some options.

Mors
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:11 pm

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Mors » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:00 pm

Seeing as I am not a member of any clan and will not be able to participate in this tournament, I would volunteer my services as a referee.

My "resume" includes being one of five founding members of the 29th, founder of 47th (from which the 42Cdo was created), founding the AP LB division and brief membership in TRR. I currently have no clan affiliations and have been absent from the mod for the past 2-4 years.

I have commanded and participated in hundreds of linebattles, know the LBC rules by heart and would referee the matches without any bias or prejudice. My only desire is to see BG2 thrive.


Swarth/Mors

joethepro36
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by joethepro36 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:30 am

I'm fine with you being a referee, such ref's need to be entirely independent of clans in order to eliminate the bias.

As for commander killing its perhaps the most effective tactic in closely run games, with that 3-4 seconds of reorganisation and realignment of the line under a new leader that costs a game. It takes around two seconds for the order to get carried across and maybe another two for the commander to have moved into position with the line falling in effectively. This is in a game where often a second or two in delaying a volley can cost the round. Repeat this several times a round or throughout many rounds while the opposing side does not do the same and you end up with certain individuals taking issue with it.

It seems we are agreed on the LBC rules as the standard for linebattle rule in any case.

Mors
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:11 pm

Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Mors » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:44 pm

It seems to me that there's a pros and cons to targeting and killing the commanders of the opposing line.

The pros obviously being that if you take out the opposing commander it will cause confusion and disarray for a few or many seconds - depending on how disciplined, aware and organized your unit is.

The cons being that if you have your line concentrate fire on the commander instead of the middle of the line, you're possibly wasting away volley after volley on hitting one target instead of maximizing damage and taking casualties as a result. If your unit is organized enough to have several volley groups, then yes theoretically you can have Group A, B, C aim at different points of the enemy line but that level of discipline is extremely difficult to create and brings its own logistical issues with it.

So it seems to me that it's a non-issue and should be decided by each team if it the potential risks are worth the reward. If I were leading a LB and was targeted/killed at the beginning of every round I would be extremely disappointed with the opposing team but i don't see how killing a player in a game where the goal is to kill all other players should be an issue.

I believe Hawke said it best: "any clan worth it's salt has an entire chain of command all the way down to corporal that should be able to take command on the spot. It's a realistic scenario for the type of war that was being fought in America at the time, and it's interesting to have to quickly adapt to the loss of a commander on the spot."

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