Linebattle Cup Discussion

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Unas
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:01 am

The question is not whether it is worth it to shoot for the commander. That is very situational, and against a moving line (where it also is worst for a line to lose the commander) it definitely is in most cases. The question is whether we should allow it. And I strongly suggest that we shouldnt, as that could potentially ruin the whole experience.
Linebattles are about great commanding skills, shooting and melee skills, disciplined soldiers and obviously a good portion of luck. If you allow commander killing the focus is too much on who can fix their line quickest after a commander dies. Also it will diminish the flow of the linebattle and take away many chances from the first commander to show off his skill. And these are the most enjoyable battles to most anyone that has a little experience in linebattling: when the commander is skilled.


However: since there are pretty much weekly linebattle matches now at least between the 42nd and the 29th, maybe we should just try it out and see. Not necessarily tonight though. Not sure. Its mostly on my officers to decide and although I am pretty sure they kinda agree with what I say, I dont speak for them.

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JessieK
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by JessieK » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:50 pm

I'm not much of a Linebattler I will admit but what exactly should we do if someone shoots a commander?

Do they forfeit the round? Seems a touch unfair given how long range fire or a moving line could randomly lead to a commander death, which then gives you a free round or a restart to the round.

At what number of players is it okay to shoot the commander, if a line has 5 players left and you shoot the command is that still not okay?

It's a very very odd rule to have in a mode that rewards very little creativity, wouldn't it be better to allow commander shooting to add a layer of depth?

It's a super risk/reward strategy which might not even pay off if you get the commander killed

For example, you shoot the end of the line with the command to try to kill them off, you sacrifice the likelihood of hitting someone that you'd get if you shoot at the middle of the line, but you gain the benefit of maybe killing the guy in charge.

But even if you do kill the leader is this a clan who can quickly recover from that or not?

Things like this create real strategy in a game mode which frankly is quite limited in what you can do due to so many rules restricting it (No cover, don't shoot commander, only shoot when you are shoulder to shoulder) it's basically who has the best shots wins now. Of course they would always be favoured if you removed a few of those rules but a clever creative commander could do so much more to turn the tides that right now they just can't

It makes sense in public games due to the fact the commanders are normally admins or people who know what they are doing to keep order and it restricts trolling, but in a clan v clan game it seems like a very very pointless rule.
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Mors
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Mors » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:38 am

JessieK, I couldn't agree more. I believe this would be a great opportunity to revisit and review the rules we've been playing with for over a decade.

Unas, i'm curious to hear your opinion on shooting from cover? Would you say that if you were skilled enough to maneuver your line to fire from an advantageous position - from a hill, behind a hedge, etc. - that this would be unsportsmanlike behavior and should not be allowed?

On a side note, it's very humorous to me to see how you view linebattles. Is the game mode created to show off "commander skill"? As far as i recall it was about discipline, awareness, unity, and the ability to turn 20-30 individuals into a killing machine, volley after volley. Image

Sebek
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Sebek » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:54 am

I dont know who you are, I cant recall if you were in all that clans, but you were off for years and now you come back and wanna allow shooting the commander and firing from cover or what?

And yes it is about a skilled commander who leads a disciplined line to victory. It's about tactical positioning, beeing aware of what the enemy does and fast reacting. If you shoot the commander he can't show off his part of those skills. Then it just matters how disciplined your line is and how fast the 2nd can take over.

Unas
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:11 am

I'm not much of a Linebattler I will admit but what exactly should we do if someone shoots a commander?

Do they forfeit the round? Seems a touch unfair given how long range fire or a moving line could randomly lead to a commander death, which then gives you a free round or a restart to the round.

At what number of players is it okay to shoot the commander, if a line has 5 players left and you shoot the command is that still not okay?
In case the team that lost the commander complains about it (when it has happened repeatedly or when the line was wide, close to the enemy or on the move that its likely the commander got killed on purpose) the demo can be reviewed to check that. Rule violations can lead to the forfeit of the round. They won't in every case, but they can if there is evidence that the rule violation has clearly helped the team win the round.
It's a super risk/reward strategy which might not even pay off if you get the commander killed
he
I disagree. On medium or close distance it is very easy to kill the opposing commander. And it is particularly easy when the opposing line is moving. A moving line has gaps between men. If you're any good at aiming and the distance is not too large, you will either hit the target you're aiming at or your bullet will go in front or behind him. In case you don't hit, bullet spread is likely going to be small enough that your bullet does not hit anyone else but shoots through the gaps in the line.
Carry this thought process on and you will find that it actually is very low risk to aim for the commander of a moving line. You are about as likely to hit him as you are hitting any other target in the line you may pick.
On top of that: in many linebattle situations in this game the distances are simply not long enough to call aiming for the commander a high risk. Just aim between him and the second guy in line. You are not wasting much in terms of chances to get a hit and on top of that you are likely going to wound/kill the commander.
But even if you do kill the leader is this a clan who can quickly recover from that or not?
Like I said. It would be more about that than about skillful commanding. Seeing how you can actually involve quite a bit of strategy and commanding a line well takes a lot of experience and skill, you cannot expect a lot of people to be able to do it on the highest level. That counts for the 29th at least, where there is a big disparity in commanding skill throughout our ranks. How about the tactic of the actual round? Multiple people need to know it in depth if you wanna guarantee its execution. That is unlikely gonna be the case, so when the commander dies, the tactic is fucked.
Then lets look at that: when the line is moving (which is, like I explained, the best chance for the enemy to aim at your commander in most cases) and the commander dies, there is no way to quickly recover from that in many cases. Same for when the line is standing: you cannot quickly move out to the left if the commander was standing on the left and got killed shortly before that. The second needs to move over first, and maybe its not viable at that point to move to the right?
Shooting the commander can be a huge issue, don't underestimate that.
Things like this create real strategy in a game mode which frankly is quite limited in what you can do due to so many rules restricting it (No cover, don't shoot commander, only shoot when you are shoulder to shoulder) it's basically who has the best shots wins now. Of course they would always be favoured if you removed a few of those rules but a clever creative commander could do so much more to turn the tides that right now they just can't
I have never seen you command a linebattle, so I cannot judge on your skill at doing it, but again: I disagree. There are many things you can do as a commander and by no means does it just come down to who shoots better. It starts with what muskets you pick on which team. Do you want accuracy, high damage, good bayonets or whatever? And how are you going to use these advantages and disadvantages as the commander? Then precise timings, different formations at the right moment, charge distances, silhouetting, all sorts of factors are important.
Now then: take away the cover rule, 'give the commander some space for creativity'. You know what I'll do next time we play? I'll take my line to a spot where I'm concealed up to the shoulders and never move out from there again apart from the charge I can do after a bunch of volleys, because your line will have taken regular damage and in my line... maybe you guys got one lucky headshot and the rest of my guys are full health and laughing.
It will be similar with commander shooting. Rules are there to create an even battlefield that gives you the chance to be creative as a commander and show skill. If there weren't any rules, people would just abuse broken game mechanics.
Unas, i'm curious to hear your opinion on shooting from cover? Would you say that if you were skilled enough to maneuver your line to fire from an advantageous position - from a hill, behind a hedge, etc. - that this would be unsportsmanlike behavior and should not be allowed?
Firing from cover if the opposing line is halting (or in the process of lining up) is strictly forbidden. Its not unsportsmanlike behaviour, its against the rules, simple as that. If a clan does that against us repeatedly, we're not going to continue playing. It takes no skill at all to line up behind cover and shoot from there. It takes skill to fight in the open and outplay and outshoot the opposing team. But I went in detail above.
Arguably, firing from cover is forbidden altogether and we do avoid it in our matches with the 42nd, but in internal battles we allow firing from cover as long as the enemy is moving, since them moving can quickly change what is and is not cover, which can limit specific maps quite a bit. But that is our own view.
Is the game mode created to show off "commander skill"? As far as i recall it was about discipline, awareness, unity,
And who said that? And even if thats legit in the headline of the code of BG1, why can't we have both? Discipline, awareness and unity combined with commander skill?

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KasoS
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by KasoS » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:50 am

Well it seems we are talking for nothing here. Actual LB clan leaders (29th and 42nd) already agreed to follow LBC Rules. We are just waiting about 49th. Anyway, in that set rules there is simple rule :
3. It is forbidden to purposefully shoot at the commander unless there is no other target presented, ie: if the enemy commander is moving his line directly towards the enemy line and the commander then is killed because the enemy line has got no other target, then it is not considered an offense.
So why the fuck are we even talking about shoot on the commanders ? I just see Mors asking for it where as he is not in clan anymore and didnt play a fucking LB for a while.

@Jessiek. Well if a commander get killed, it doesnt mean the round is forfeited. It depends of circumstances. That is why a there is demo to watch if peoples are doing in on purpose or if its just an unlucky shot from far distance. To be honest when the commander is killed, it's a bit annoying for the line because tactic will probably change with an another commander even if this is not dramatic because an another officer will take over and will probably make a good job.
Thing is if we allow to shoot on the ends of line, every officers will get fucked and most of lower ranks won't be able to take over and lead a proper LB because they don't have enough experience. In my opinion, if we make a LB cup, this is to play epic and good match will a lot of commander's skill, and not poor LB with major mistakes from inexperienced commander.

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JessieK
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by JessieK » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:59 pm

Unas wrote:
Snip
I don't ever command LBs so I will admit everything I am saying is purely me just theory crafting and it's nice to discuss game design even in a community made mode such as this. I didn't really take in to account the idea of "Close range fire could lead to someones commander being shot with ease" I will admit that too.

Just seems like a big mess of stuff waiting to happen when some bitter clan loses and blames a single commander shot.

You also seem to cling to these rules like they are perfection, games evolve, metas must change to create something interesting, every single game designer knows this so why is it this community is so unwilling to at least REVIEW the rules from years ago. The 29th have been on top without question for at least two years now, and honestly it's a tad dull you guys have basically perfected linebattling, which is great for you guys but basically means I already know who's going to win this tournament without even having to see any other clans play. Maybe a new game type for the community needs to be made completely but I really think you guys need to be more willing to change up these rules a bit to create a more interesting experience,

This isn't an attack I won't even be competing in such a tournament it doesn't appeal to me, but the awesome thing about the skirmish league we just had (which I had to drop out of bleh) was when it first started I didn't know who would win, and that was exciting because skirmishing has so many different ways it can be played and that's a good thing.

The rules as they stand now are faultless (not perfect just solid) for the game mode we all play, they do protect that I'm not questioning that, I am questioning how this might be quite boring and how a change of pace with a very small rule change really could shift the focus of the game a bit to create some more interesting clan v clan matches.

KasoS wrote: Post is long
@KasoS

Because it's an interesting discussion in the community, and those rules are not the 10 commandments, don't go around swearing at people cause someone wrote some rules 4 years ago and someone else dared to go "huh maybe we could change things"

Just cause someone hasn't been a commander for a while doesn't mean they cannot discuss things, there is nothing wrong with allowing people on the forums to talk about things that could actually benefit the game, instead of closing down all arguments by saying "Your not a commander of a clan you can't say anything" cause that's not fair and not good for our dying community
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Unas
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:17 pm

'Clinging to the rules' is not a fair summary of what the 29th is doing. Its just that some of these rules are the very fundamentals of linebattling. BG2 as opposed to other games does not offer much room to change stuff for the better. That means, if you want to change the rules and we don't like the suggestion, that is likely going to be because the suggestion is not good, not because we don't want change.

That there has not been much good linebattle competition for the 29th in many years is not a good reason to force change. We have practiced hard to accomplish our status and people cannot fault us for that and handicap us because of that. We are not hindering anyone else from practice. We hardly ever deny practice matches and we are not unwilling to help anyone.
So yes, we want competition and we'd like to play close matches or even lose games to have a reason to practice harder. But its not up to us. Lowering the general skill ceiling and enabling abusive game mechanics by deleting or changing fundamental rules however is not a way of artificially creating fiercer competition that we can appreciate.

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JessieK
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by JessieK » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:36 pm

Unas wrote:'Clinging to the rules' is not a fair summary of what the 29th is doing. Its just that some of these rules are the very fundamentals of linebattling. BG2 as opposed to other games does not offer much room to change stuff for the better. That means, if you want to change the rules and we don't like the suggestion, that is likely going to be because the suggestion is not good, not because we don't want change.

That there has not been much good linebattle competition for the 29th in many years is not a good reason to force change. We have practiced hard to accomplish our status and people cannot fault us for that and handicap us because of that. We are not hindering anyone else from practice. We hardly ever deny practice matches and we are not unwilling to help anyone.
So yes, we want competition and we'd like to play close matches or even lose games to have a reason to practice harder. But its not up to us. Lowering the general skill ceiling and enabling abusive game mechanics by deleting or changing fundamental rules however is not a way of artificially creating fiercer competition that we can appreciate.
Please don't let this seem as an attack on the 29th I am questioning people not groups when I say "you" I mean you Unas, not YOU the 29th, I couldn't care less which clan you belong too other than you all seem to share the same ideas meaning my points could be used on other individual members of your clan, and it also doesn't lower the skill ceiling if anything it increases it cause everyone needs to know what to do if a commander gets shot and everyone needs to be ready to command so please don't act like this makes it easier to shoot or command somehow...

If you think removing something from a game that would actually hinder one group whilst potentially boosting others abilities is something unheard of in game design I'd turn your eyes to Hearthstone and League of legends who constantly do JUST THAT it upsets people who have mastered one of the arts of that game but it allows other new strategies, plays and players to grow in power it keeps the meta interesting.

Skirmishes in BG2 have the ability to be a wide range of different game modes all needing a different tactic to play and with new maps to play on, skirmish, CTF, siege (arguably is quite skirmishy), and tickets (which we just...don't seem to use not very well implemented I guess) but LBs have two ways to play, small map or big map, both of which basically devolve in to the same basic idea, who can shoot the best and who can shoot first, there's very little difference the map truly makes to the fundamentals of a match, the rules, strategy and game play are all exactly the same regardless and that just seems like a BAD thing to me, maybe this is just the wrong thread to be talking about this in, after all an LB tournament is what you are talking about and LB is a very very strict thing apparently, but just food for thought, not an attack just someone who'd like to see some verity in larger scale clan battles.

My issue isn't that the 29th are the best or any one clan is, my issue is that nothing changes and its gotten a bit dull, but that's what you guys like that's fine I just thought it'd be interesting to discuss possible game changes without it being thrown out right away cause someone wrote some rules years ago.
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Unas
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Unas » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:03 pm

I am not upset. Some members of my clan (even though most of those have refrained from posting in this topic) are. And its quite easy to tell why.
and it also doesn't lower the skill ceiling if anything it increases it cause everyone needs to know what to do if a commander gets shot and everyone needs to be ready to command so please don't act like this makes it easier to shoot or command somehow...
This is coming from you, and you admitted in this very topic that you never command linebattles and understand little about them. I understand a lot about them since I have been leading the 29th for about 3 years and been involved in leadership for 4 years.
And I am telling you: when the commander is killed, it changes the round a lot. I have explained this above. The whole strategy for the round goes down the crapper and not every commander is equally skilled. Also, no matter how focussed and disciplined the line is, losing a commander in the wrong situation will mess it up completely. Also: if I teach my members how to fix it as fast as possible, and you take 15 random newbs and take 20 minutes to teach them properly, we will have about the same results. It takes very little skill to fix that. Its just a nuisance that can cost you the round and that takes away from the flaw and the tactics and strategy of regular linebattling. So essentially you are lowering the skill ceiling.
If you think removing something from a game that would actually hinder one group whilst potentially boosting others abilities is something unheard of in game design I'd turn your eyes to Hearthstone and League of legends who constantly do JUST THAT it upsets people who have mastered one of the arts of that game but it allows other new strategies, plays and players to grow in power it keeps the meta interesting.
I said already: I am not against change.
but LBs have two ways to play, small map or big map, both of which basically devolve in to the same basic idea, who can shoot the best and who can shoot first,
That is entirely inaccurate.
there's very little difference the map truly makes to the fundamentals of a match, the rules, strategy and game play are all exactly the same regardless
The map makes little difference to the very fundamentals and the rules, yet the gameplay and strategy will vary a lot as many different maps offer different possibilities and challenges to a skilled commander.
my issue is that nothing changes and its gotten a bit dull
I can completely understand that a lot of people feel that way. If for them linebattling is really all about moving out, lining up and firing until death or occasionally surviving till skirmish or charge, that will get boring. I feel exactly the same way about public linebattles, which offer way less possibilities in terms of commanding.
On a clan basis however, where commanders can exploit the full potential that linebattles in BG2 have, it never gets boring.

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