Linebattle Cup Discussion

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JessieK
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by JessieK » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:53 pm

If I am upsetting people by calmly discussing a game mode I will stop talking about it as a whole, I'm honestly shocked that people are upset that I and others dared to question some rules just due to attempting to make some changes to a tired and tried game mode, Jesus people seriously I'm no dev, I'm not even a LBer, I have 0 power to actually change rules it was just an interesting subject so I poped in to talk, I was just interested in some game design discussion if that upsets you, grow up.

Not everything is a battle, sometimes people just want to talk. Which is why I time and time again was happy to admit I was wrong or knew little about the subject, and yet for some reason people are still getting annoyed...Jesus.

Also as a side note, maybe think on this 90% of people in clans don't get to command in clan v clan games, maybe some new game mode which allows this to be more possible would be a good thing for the community, something to think about.
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Numbers
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Numbers » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:01 pm

To my dear BG2 Community leadership and other assorted servants thereof,

In my humble opinion, as a longtime participant in the holy art of the linebattle, LBC rules should be used unmolested. I do not see an advantage to allowing for commander shooting; however, I am not steadfast in my opposition to this, I merely need better arguments for its merits. I have just got back into the BG2 community after a year-long hiatus, so I forget the names of the different 29th LB maps that I liked, but they have some great maps that I would be interested in going back into battle on. As for cover, the community is best to avoid such flagrant douchebaggery; however, if both teams involved agree to allow cover, which I see very little chance of anyhow, I would not be opposed to allowing them to molest that rule on a case-by-case basis. However, as stated earlier, I am a humble servant to the holy LBC rules package and the unmolested version thereof, save for the case-by-case basis aforementioned in terms of cover and commander shooting.

Long live the Battle Grounds 2 community!

Numbers
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joethepro36
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by joethepro36 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:10 pm

It's always a bit rich when people who don't LB, never wish to LB and have effectively zero LB experience try and tell others that the rules should change.

Mors
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Mors » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:22 pm

It's especially funny seeing people categorically shut down when even the possibility of change appears. As if it's some threat to your imaginary video game power.

No one said "I WANT TO CHANGE THE RULES" - it was just an interesting discussion regarding rules and potential changes.

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JessieK
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by JessieK » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:49 pm

joethepro36 wrote:It's always a bit rich when people who don't LB, never wish to LB and have effectively zero LB experience try and tell others that the rules should change.
I've LB'd quite a lot actually, I've been in the 29th briefly, I was quite high up in the 33rd, I was in the 12th before devil took it over and ran events in the short lived RRF, I've LB'd. All before you dragged yourself back in to the game.

I don't wish to LB now cause I've LB'd enough to know that it no longer interests me, I'm a meh shot, and I dislike commanding in any sense, and as Unas said himself, when you're not commanding it gets old fast.

Mors is right, I never said nor did he, the rules MUST change, we simply found the discussion interesting as I have pointed out three times now.

I should also point out that Unas was able to raise points I didn't think of that make me agree that yes shooting commanders being "okay" maybe isn't a good idea due to close range you could easily pick off the back and front of the lines leaving only the newer players left in the middle, something I didn't even consider, cool as this would be to see, it wouldn't make for a very fun game for either team.
Last edited by JessieK on Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Numbers
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Numbers » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:59 pm

To whom it may concern, intrigue, or fascinate,
Mors wrote:It's especially funny seeing people categorically shut down when even the possibility of change appears. As if it's some threat to your imaginary video game power.

No one said "I WANT TO CHANGE THE RULES" - it was just an interesting discussion regarding rules and potential changes.
I saw no one "categorically shut down" as you so artfully crafted the phrasing. They shot down flawed arguments and two disastrous examples of why the LBC rules' creators and TRR before them were so apt in their nearly all-encompassing rules package.

What I did see was people, notably yourself and JessieK, two people who I have the utmost respect for, saying that there are two rules that need changed and when you are given legitimate arguments as to their further disallowment from league-sanctioned play, you pull the "powers that be" card.

I encourage further debate, and for the hell of it, I would like to quote Unas on a different forum discussion on this subject.

"First: the cover rules.
We have always handled it like that: When the enemy line is on the move, we don't care about cover. As soon as the opponent stops, we can't fire from cover anymore.
Now theres been a few issues with the cover rules in past matches. Should any line be in cover, just drop a quick 'c' in allchat. Sometimes its hard for you to tell whether or not you're in cover in relation to the enemy position so thats helpful. If both lines are in cover, the gentlemanly rule that we usually try to follow is: both lines should move out without giving fire.
But as opposed to our intraclan matches, where we might try to use the cover rules to our own advantage, in interclan games we just try to stay clear of cover alltogether if we can. Avoids disputes.

Second: splitting the line.
There have been complaints by the 42nd about our line not being complete before we give fire. That is because we use what we call 'group firing'. Essentially what it is is a big line split into 2 small lines. But as opposed to moving to different positions, these two lines stay in the same formation and get commanded by the same commander. This allows us to order the first group to fire before the second group is completely lined up.
From way back in the day when I joined the clan, group firing was never seen as equal to having two separate lines but it was a thing on its own and thus we cared not for how many guys we had per group. A review of the rules has forced us to change our policy towards that and group firing will in future matches only be used if the line is 14+ men strong at the start of the round and we will cease to use it if one group goes down to 3 men.
That is if we plan on firing without both groups being complete. In case both groups are complete, we may still use it in whatever way, since the LBC rules dont state that the whole formation has to fire in a single volley. But that is a rare case, since as you can well imagine, group firing loses its effectiveness quickly with less men and when everyone is lined up already anyways."

Hawke
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Hawke » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:31 pm

I'm going to take a moment to jump in here. There is a lot of good discussion going on in this thread that needs to be talked about and discussed. Line battles have been going on for over a decade now and it's always good to look back and ask why we do things or if we could do them better to make the game more fun, interesting and enjoyable to all involved.

I would also say that our mod is very small and the community very tight. Please keep in mind that the days of 60+ player clans and clan rivalries are long over, so in the interest of the community please try and be as civil as you can.

However while this is all good discussion this is not the thread for it. This is a thread for the participating clans of the Line Battle Cup to talk about the game and what they may want, not a general discussion of line battle history, clans or rules and maps. To that end I am splitting this topic and moving it to a general line battle discussion thread.

Please use this thread to discuss issues with the line battle cup. If you have any more thoughts on the issue of line battle rules or wish to continue a discussion, please do so here: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=876
I hated to have to kill them all, but they had to be taught a lesson.

CaveManJimmy
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by CaveManJimmy » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:41 pm

Right before I get my self involved in the "should commander shooting be allowed" argument, I would like to say that the 49th would also like to abide by the LBC rules alongside the 42nd and 29th.

Now we have got that part clear, I will also like to say that the 49th does not mind whether tweaks are made to the rules. However, commander shooting is one tweak that requires opinions. If you want to make it a rule that commander shooting is allowed, there will always be someone who has a grudge against it. No matter how much you beg to have it added/removed, it will be based on opinions. As Jessie and Mors said earlier, there are positives and negatives to commander shooting. One argument for is the fact that it adds more "excitement" to lb's. An argument against it would be the fact that it causes too much disruption to the lines. Henceforth, it will make each round an objective of "who can take out the opposing commander quicker"....

As of recent events, we have had that problem. Although in some cases, it added more action to the game, it also became a nuisance. Once every "experienced" commander is taken out, it leaves the less experienced members; resulting in an almost certain defeat for the team with less experienced members at hand.

Therefore, if you want to allow commander shooting, it will have to be done through a vote. Majority choice wins... Even if it's 51% chooses to have commander shooting.

P.s, I feel that having a referee is a far more effective than watching demos.

Numbers
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Numbers » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:03 pm

Regarding referees
While I am fully aware that demos have been the accepted way of doing things in BG for quite some time, and that the referee pool will be smaller than preferred, I think that referees are a far superior way of reviewing rule violations and assessing penalties for them. This is due to the limitations of demos aforementioned by esteemed members of the community as well as the live assessment granted by a referee present in match-hosting servers. However, I think that teams playing should decide on the person to review their match in unison and should be able to veto a referee and request a replacement if they feel that they may be slighted based upon personal bias. I would recommend a cap perhaps on the number of vetoes (perhaps 2 vetoes a season). Thoughts?

Hawke
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Re: Linebattle Cup Discussion

Post by Hawke » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:10 pm

I'll add my support to the referee idea, particularly after the discussion on commander shooting. I felt like Jessie made a valid point that got lost in the conversation. If commander killing stays illegal as per the LBC rules, what happens when a commander is killed in a Cup match (and that will happen), what then is to be done? What is the penalty for the team? How do you decide if it was deliberate or not? That is a situation where an impartial referee could be invaluable.
I hated to have to kill them all, but they had to be taught a lesson.

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