Line Battle Rules Discussion

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Hawke
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Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by Hawke » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:34 pm

Please use this thread to air your thoughts about the Line battle rules that have been used in Bg2. Any ideas, thoughts or recommendations are welcome.
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Unas
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by Unas » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:42 pm

Ok, continuing from the other topic:

@Jessie:
I said I am not upset. I said some of my guys are upset and what I mean by that is they went like 'omg if they really wanna do this we can try but unless my views get changed by pretty much 180° on that topic after we tried it, I don't want to play in the tournament because its a shit idea and it destroys linebattling'. Something along the lines of that. Nobody lost his shit, you can safely discuss.

@Mors:
It's especially funny seeing people categorically shut down when even the possibility of change appears. As if it's some threat to your imaginary video game power.
Like what do you even mean, dude? Categorically shut down? You cannot be serious about that. I wrote like an entire essay as to why I dont like the idea of this change in particular, which, seeing how 'interested' you are in the topic, you certainly read. So no 'categorical' shutdown. Just a shutdown based on arguments which I have yet to see good counterarguments for. All you're doing is 'categorically' shutting down my arguments by saying I 'just don't want change'. Don't be a fool.
You can certainly understand as well how some of my guys react. We start discussing a linebattle cup, something that the 29th would be very happy to have, and in comes a guy that has not been anywhere close to the BG2 and linebattle community in particular for many years and wants one of the most fundamental changes you could possibly make. That is gonna make some people frown and you can hardly fault them for it.


Edit:
@Jimmy:
Remember how it is with public linebattle votes? If you have 20 players and 55% vote yes, you cannot start, since linebattle is so entirely different to skirmishing that the other 45% are probably just going to leave the server, leaving you with 11 players in total. This is not unlikely going to be the same. Like I said: if it comes to this rule change and many people are in favor, I want to try it and then see, but if it is as terrible as I said it could be, you can count us out. But that is a few ways away.
Last edited by Unas on Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JessieK
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by JessieK » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:50 pm

Unas wrote:Ok, continuing from the other topic:

@Jessie:
I said I am not upset. I said some of my guys are upset and what I mean by that is they went like 'omg if they really wanna do this we can try but unless my views get changed by pretty much 180° on that topic after we tried it, I don't want to play in the tournament because its a shit idea and it destroys linebattling'. Something along the lines of that. Nobody lost his shit, you can safely discuss.
I never said YOU were upset I meant if members of the community in your clan were getting annoyed, then it was basically a point to stop, like I said we discussed and you made valid points and I concede (as I pointed out in my last post) that you were probably right on this one, but I think it's healthy to be able to talk about that, rather than (as some people did) say that the rules are what they are and you shouldn't question them, where as you gave reasons which made me stand down, that's all I was after really :)
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Mors
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by Mors » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:52 pm

Unas, I myself provided the arguments and counterarguments for the commander shooting question. You're putting words in my mouth along with insulting me and I don't appreciate that at all. I've been nothing but cordial and would like to request you to start behave as gentlemanly as you believe yourself to be.

I didn't request to change one of the most fundamental rules to the game, I was excited to have a discussion regarding archaic systems and rules that you all blindly follow without knowing the cause nor purpose of. You can't take this personally - especially when i've done nothing to insult you.

I'm not here to defend myself but the toxicity i experienced here is absolutely shocking. This was a disappointing experience.

Unas
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by Unas » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:36 pm

Unas, I myself provided the arguments and counterarguments for the commander shooting question.
The last I remember is you and others proposing an idea and giving arguments for it and then me giving the appropriate counterarguments (from my point of view appropriate anyways). Then we left the topic itself and went more to the direction of us 'not wanting to change anything', which is what I complained about, as it has nothing to do with the topic.
You're putting words in my mouth along with insulting me and I don't appreciate that at all. I've been nothing but cordial and would like to request you to start behave as gentlemanly as you believe yourself to be.
What? 'Don't be a fool' is insulting to you? Fine then, apologies for that. But I believe I made a fair point as to why I said that.
I didn't request to change one of the most fundamental rules to the game,
You were voting in favor of that though, unless I misunderstood you completely.
discussion regarding archaic systems and rules that you all blindly follow without knowing the cause nor purpose of.
I am pretty sure I can give you more or less accurate explanations for the purpose of each and every rule in the LBC rule set. Some are more fundamental, others have a bit more vague reasonings behind them (for example rules 2 and 4), others may even allow for slight changes (for example rules 5 and 7), but we don't blindly follow them.
(For reference again: https://lbchamp.wordpress.com/rules/)
You can't take this personally - especially when i've done nothing to insult you.
I did not, for the most part. I gave you reasonable explanations for everything I said.
I'm not here to defend myself but the toxicity i experienced here is absolutely shocking. This was a disappointing experience.
You dislike what I say, disregard my arguments in future posts and are 'shocked' that I am not heartwarmingly friendly anymore? Seems odd. 'Toxic' however is not what I would call it it. Why don't we just call it 'controversy' or 'argument'? That is much more appropriate and we can all get back to discussing the actual topic itself.

Unas
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by Unas » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:39 pm

I would like to discuss two things.

1.) What happens in case of a server crash? Server crashes happen quite frequently during linebattles, especially when two lines fire volleys at each other at the exact same time. People that know a bit about the game mechanics have claimed that there is bullet collision mid-air which crashes the server. So apparently it is not a problem with the server (so you can't always fault the clan that hosts the server for it), but a problem with the game.
Anyways, how do we want to handle it? In my opinion, the round should be replayed. This, however, leaves the possibility that a team could crash the server on purpose (for the server host it requires exactly one click to do that) if they are about to lose a round.

2.) Reforming the line during a charge is frequently done, especially when the opposing team is fighting with two separate lines. However, the 29th have in the past had encounters where the opposing clan would basically sit behind cover, charge out of cover and then, after everyone has fired a free shot on the opponent, reform the line again behind cover. This offers minimum risk, yet almost the same (or even more) possibilities to hurt the enemy line as a regular volley. How do we want to prevent this from happening?

VisualMelon
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by VisualMelon » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:17 pm

(Just nosing in as a coder - this crash is an interesting phenomenon I've not heard of before, but it's clearly a real concern - the way the bullets are simulated they cannot collide, there is simply no scope for that in the code, so don't worry in that regard - what may instead be happening is someone being killed by a bullet fired by someone who is already dead, and this violating an assumption somewhere in the code (the guy who killed me isn't dead seems like a reasonable assumption, right?) - I'll have a look into this! update: a bit of testing suggests it probably isn't this simple)
Last edited by VisualMelon on Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nathan Hale
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by Nathan Hale » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:25 pm

VisualMelon wrote:(Just nosing in as a coder - this crash is an interesting phenomenon I've not heard of before, but it's clearly a real concern - the way the bullets are simulated they cannot collide, there is simply no scope for that in the code, so don't worry in that regard - what may instead be happening is someone being killed by a bullet fired by someone who is already dead, and this violating an assumption somewhere in the code (the guy who killed me isn't dead seems like a reasonable assumption, right?) - I'll have a look into this!)
More over, what happens if two people bayonet charge each other and stab at the same instant? Or both are point blank and pull the trigger at the same time? I'm trying to recall an instance where two people shoot each other at the same time, and both die at the same time, but I cannot recall such an incident at any time in the recent past. I will grant these incidents are very rare, but if they cause the server to crash in full, we need to fix it just to prevent it from happening.
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VisualMelon
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by VisualMelon » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:30 pm

Yes indeed, I've never observed one in-game, but it's easy enough to fudge if you mess with the server config as I have just been doing with a bot or two (without a crash) - some more coordinated testing might help to narrow down the issue. This could be a very fun/painful bug to find and fix!
"I returned to the battery and spat out my teeth: I found only two."

klifsnider
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Re: Line Battle Rules Discussion

Post by klifsnider » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:36 pm

Nathan Hale wrote:More over, what happens if two people bayonet charge each other and stab at the same instant? Or both are point blank and pull the trigger at the same time? I'm trying to recall an instance where two people shoot each other at the same time, and both die at the same time, but I cannot recall such an incident at any time in the recent past. I will grant these incidents are very rare, but if they cause the server to crash in full, we need to fix it just to prevent it from happening.
I've never seen this happen. It shouldn't be possible, whichever packet reaches the server first will be the deciding one. It processes them one by one afaik.

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